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jobs kenya 2016

jobs kenya 2016

holt: good evening from hofstra universityin hempstead, new york. i’m lester holt, anchor of “nbc nightlynews.” i want to welcome you to the first presidentialdebate. the participants tonight are donald trumpand hillary clinton. this debate is sponsored by the commissionon presidential debates, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. the commission drafted tonight’s format,and the rules have been agreed to by the campaigns. the 90-minute debate is divided into six segments,each 15 minutes long. we’ll explore three topic areas tonight:achieving prosperity; america’s direction;

and securing america. at the start of each segment, i will ask thesame lead-off question to both candidates, and they will each have up to two minutesto respond. from that point until the end of the segment,we’ll have an open discussion. the questions are mine and have not been sharedwith the commission or the campaigns. the audience here in the room has agreed toremain silent so that we can focus on what the candidates are saying. i will invite you to applaud, however, atthis moment, as we welcome the candidates: democratic nominee for president of the unitedstates, hillary clinton, and republican nominee

for president of the united states, donaldj. trump. (applause) clinton: how are you, donald? holt: good luck to you. well, i don’t expect us to cover all theissues of this campaign tonight, but i remind everyone, there are two more presidentialdebates scheduled. we are going to focus on many of the issuesthat voters tell us are most important, and we’re going to press for specifics. i am honored to have this role, but this eveningbelongs to the candidates and, just as important,

to the american people. candidates, we look forward to hearing youarticulate your policies and your positions, as well as your visions and your values. so, let’s begin. we’re calling this opening segment “achievingprosperity.” and central to that is jobs. there are two economic realities in americatoday. there’s been a record six straight yearsof job growth, and new census numbers show incomes have increased at a record rate afteryears of stagnation.

however, income inequality remains significant,and nearly half of americans are living paycheck to paycheck. beginning with you, secretary clinton, whyare you a better choice than your opponent to create the kinds of jobs that will putmore money into the pockets of american works? clinton: well, thank you, lester, and thanksto hofstra for hosting us. the central question in this election is reallywhat kind of country we want to be and what kind of future we’ll build together. today is my granddaughter’s second birthday,so i think about this a lot. first, we have to build an economy that worksfor everyone, not just those at the top.

that means we need new jobs, good jobs, withrising incomes. i want us to invest in you. i want us to invest in your future. that means jobs in infrastructure, in advancedmanufacturing, innovation and technology, clean, renewable energy, and small business,because most of the new jobs will come from small business. we also have to make the economy fairer. that starts with raising the national minimumwage and also guarantee, finally, equal pay for women’s work.

clinton: i also want to see more companiesdo profit-sharing. if you help create the profits, you shouldbe able to share in them, not just the executives at the top. and i want us to do more to support peoplewho are struggling to balance family and work. i’ve heard from so many of you about thedifficult choices you face and the stresses that you’re under. so let’s have paid family leave, earnedsick days. let’s be sure we have affordable child careand debt-free college. how are we going to do it?

we’re going to do it by having the wealthypay their fair share and close the corporate loopholes. finally, we tonight are on the stage together,donald trump and i. donald, it’s good to be with you. we’re going to have a debate where we aretalking about the important issues facing our country. you have to judge us, who can shoulder theimmense, awesome responsibilities of the presidency, who can put into action the plans that willmake your life better. i hope that i will be able to earn your voteon november 8th.

holt: secretary clinton, thank you. mr. trump, the same question to you. it’s about putting money — more moneyinto the pockets of american workers. you have up to two minutes. trump: thank you, lester. our jobs are fleeing the country. they’re going to mexico. they’re going to many other countries. you look at what china is doing to our countryin terms of making our product.

they’re devaluing their currency, and there’snobody in our government to fight them. and we have a very good fight. and we have a winning fight. because they’re using our country as a piggybank to rebuild china, and many other countries are doing the same thing. so we’re losing our good jobs, so many ofthem. when you look at what’s happening in mexico,a friend of mine who builds plants said it’s the eighth wonder of the world. they’re building some of the biggest plantsanywhere in the world, some of the most sophisticated,

some of the best plants. with the united states, as he said, not somuch. so ford is leaving. you see that, their small car division leaving. thousands of jobs leaving michigan, leavingohio. they’re all leaving. and we can’t allow it to happen anymore. as far as child care is concerned and so manyother things, i think hillary and i agree on that.

we probably disagree a little bit as to numbersand amounts and what we’re going to do, but perhaps we’ll be talking about thatlater. but we have to stop our jobs from being stolenfrom us. we have to stop our companies from leavingthe united states and, with it, firing all of their people. all you have to do is take a look at carrierair conditioning in indianapolis. they left — fired 1,400 people. so many hundreds and hundreds of companiesare doing this. trump: we cannot let it happen.

under my plan, i’ll be reducing taxes tremendously,from 35 percent to 15 percent for companies, small and big businesses. that’s going to be a job creator like wehaven’t seen since ronald reagan. it’s going to be a beautiful thing to watch. companies will come. they will build. they will expand. new companies will start. and i look very, very much forward to doingit.

we have to renegotiate our trade deals, andwe have to stop these countries from stealing our companies and our jobs. holt: secretary clinton, would you like torespond? clinton: well, i think that trade is an importantissue. of course, we are 5 percent of the world’spopulation; we have to trade with the other 95 percent. and we need to have smart, fair trade deals. we also, though, need to have a tax systemthat rewards work and not just financial transactions. and the kind of plan that donald has put forthwould be trickle-down economics all over again.

in fact, it would be the most extreme version,the biggest tax cuts for the top percent of the people in this country than we’ve everhad. i call it trumped-up trickle-down, becausethat’s exactly what it would be. that is not how we grow the economy. we just have a different view about what’sbest for growing the economy, how we make investments that will actually produce jobsand rising incomes. i think we come at it from somewhat differentperspectives. i understand that. you know, donald was very fortunate in hislife, and that’s all to his benefit.

he started his business with $14 million,borrowed from his father, and he really believes that the more you help wealthy people, thebetter off we’ll be and that everything will work out from there. i don’t buy that. i have a different experience. my father was a small-businessman. he worked really hard. he printed drapery fabrics on long tables,where he pulled out those fabrics and he went down with a silkscreen and dumped the paintin and took the squeegee and kept going.

and so what i believe is the more we can dofor the middle class, the more we can invest in you, your education, your skills, yourfuture, the better we will be off and the better we’ll grow. that’s the kind of economy i want us tosee again. holt: let me follow up with mr. trump, ifyou can. you’ve talked about creating 25 millionjobs, and you’ve promised to bring back millions of jobs for americans. how are you going to bring back the industriesthat have left this country for cheaper labor overseas?

how, specifically, are you going to tell americanmanufacturers that you have to come back? trump: well, for one thing — and beforewe start on that — my father gave me a very small loan in 1975, and i built it into acompany that’s worth many, many billions of dollars, with some of the greatest assetsin the world, and i say that only because that’s the kind of thinking that our countryneeds. our country’s in deep trouble. we don’t know what we’re doing when itcomes to devaluations and all of these countries all over the world, especially china. they’re the best, the best ever at it.

what they’re doing to us is a very, verysad thing. so we have to do that. we have to renegotiate our trade deals. and, lester, they’re taking our jobs, they’regiving incentives, they’re doing things that, frankly, we don’t do. let me give you the example of mexico. they have a vat tax. we’re on a different system. when we sell into mexico, there’s a tax.

when they sell in — automatic, 16 percent,approximately. when they sell into us, there’s no tax. it’s a defective agreement. it’s been defective for a long time, manyyears, but the politicians haven’t done anything about it. now, in all fairness to secretary clinton— yes, is that ok? good. i want you to be very happy. it’s very important to me.

but in all fairness to secretary clinton,when she started talking about this, it was really very recently. she’s been doing this for 30 years. and why hasn’t she made the agreements better? the nafta agreement is defective. just because of the tax and many other reasons,but just because of the fact... holt: let me interrupt just a moment, but... trump: secretary clinton and others, politicians,should have been doing this for years, not right now, because of the fact that we’vecreated a movement.

they should have been doing this for years. what’s happened to our jobs and our countryand our economy generally is — look, we owe $20 trillion. we cannot do it any longer, lester. holt: back to the question, though. how do you bring back — specifically bringback jobs, american manufacturers? how do you make them bring the jobs back? trump: well, the first thing you do is don’tlet the jobs leave. the companies are leaving.

i could name, i mean, there are thousandsof them. they’re leaving, and they’re leaving inbigger numbers than ever. and what you do is you say, fine, you wantto go to mexico or some other country, good luck. we wish you a lot of luck. but if you think you’re going to make yourair conditioners or your cars or your cookies or whatever you make and bring them into ourcountry without a tax, you’re wrong. and once you say you’re going to have totax them coming in, and our politicians never do this, because they have special interestsand the special interests want those companies

to leave, because in many cases, they ownthe companies. so what i’m saying is, we can stop themfrom leaving. we have to stop them from leaving. and that’s a big, big factor. holt: let me let secretary clinton get inhere. clinton: well, let’s stop for a second andremember where we were eight years ago. we had the worst financial crisis, the greatrecession, the worst since the 1930s. that was in large part because of tax policiesthat slashed taxes on the wealthy, failed to invest in the middle class, took theireyes off of wall street, and created a perfect

storm. in fact, donald was one of the people whorooted for the housing crisis. he said, back in 2006, “gee, i hope it doescollapse, because then i can go in and buy some and make some money.” well, it did collapse. trump: that’s called business, by the way. clinton: nine million people — nine millionpeople lost their jobs. five million people lost their homes. and $13 trillion in family wealth was wipedout.

now, we have come back from that abyss. and it has not been easy. so we’re now on the precipice of havinga potentially much better economy, but the last thing we need to do is to go back tothe policies that failed us in the first place. independent experts have looked at what i’veproposed and looked at what donald’s proposed, and basically they’ve said this, that ifhis tax plan, which would blow up the debt by over $5 trillion and would in some instancesdisadvantage middle-class families compared to the wealthy, were to go into effect, wewould lose 3.5 million jobs and maybe have another recession.

they’ve looked at my plans and they’vesaid, ok, if we can do this, and i intend to get it done, we will have 10 million morenew jobs, because we will be making investments where we can grow the economy. take clean energy. some country is going to be the clean- energysuperpower of the 21st century. donald thinks that climate change is a hoaxperpetrated by the chinese. i think it’s real. trump: i did not. i did not.

i do not say that. clinton: i think science is real. trump: i do not say that. clinton: and i think it’s important thatwe grip this and deal with it, both at home and abroad. and here’s what we can do. we can deploy a half a billion more solarpanels. we can have enough clean energy to power everyhome. we can build a new modern electric grid.

that’s a lot of jobs; that’s a lot ofnew economic activity. so i’ve tried to be very specific aboutwhat we can and should do, and i am determined that we’re going to get the economy reallymoving again, building on the progress we’ve made over the last eight years, but nevergoing back to what got us in trouble in the first place. holt: mr. trump? trump: she talks about solar panels. we invested in a solar company, our country. that was a disaster.

they lost plenty of money on that one. now, look, i’m a great believer in all formsof energy, but we’re putting a lot of people out of work. our energy policies are a disaster. our country is losing so much in terms ofenergy, in terms of paying off our debt. you can’t do what you’re looking to dowith $20 trillion in debt. the obama administration, from the time they’vecome in, is over 230 years’ worth of debt, and he’s topped it. he’s doubled it in a course of almost eightyears, seven-and-a-half years, to be semi-

exact. so i will tell you this. we have to do a much better job at keepingour jobs. and we have to do a much better job at givingcompanies incentives to build new companies or to expand, because they’re not doingit. and all you have to do is look at michiganand look at ohio and look at all of these places where so many of their jobs and theircompanies are just leaving, they’re gone. and, hillary, i’d just ask you this. you’ve been doing this for 30 years.

why are you just thinking about these solutionsright now? for 30 years, you’ve been doing it, andnow you’re just starting to think of solutions. clinton: well, actually... trump: i will bring — excuse me. i will bring back jobs. you can’t bring back jobs. clinton: well, actually, i have thought aboutthis quite a bit. trump: yeah, for 30 years. clinton: and i have — well, not quite thatlong.

i think my husband did a pretty good job inthe 1990s. i think a lot about what worked and how wecan make it work again... trump: well, he approved nafta... (crosstalk) clinton: ... million new jobs, a balancedbudget... trump: he approved nafta, which is the singleworst trade deal ever approved in this country. clinton: incomes went up for everybody. manufacturing jobs went up also in the 1990s,if we’re actually going to look at the facts. when i was in the senate, i had a number oftrade deals that came before me, and i held

them all to the same test. will they create jobs in america? will they raise incomes in america? and are they good for our national security? some of them i voted for. the biggest one, a multinational one knownas cafta, i voted against. and because i hold the same standards as ilook at all of these trade deals. but let’s not assume that trade is the onlychallenge we have in the economy. i think it is a part of it, and i’ve saidwhat i’m going to do.

i’m going to have a special prosecutor. we’re going to enforce the trade deals wehave, and we’re going to hold people accountable. when i was secretary of state, we actuallyincreased american exports globally 30 percent. we increased them to china 50 percent. so i know how to really work to get new jobsand to get exports that helped to create more new jobs. holt: very quickly... trump: but you haven’t done it in 30 yearsor 26 years or any number you want to... clinton: well, i’ve been a senator, donald...

trump: you haven’t done it. you haven’t done it. clinton: and i have been a secretary of state... trump: excuse me. clinton: and i have done a lot... trump: your husband signed nafta, which wasone of the worst things that ever happened to the manufacturing industry. clinton: well, that’s your opinion. that is your opinion.

trump: you go to new england, you go to ohio,pennsylvania, you go anywhere you want, secretary clinton, and you will see devastation wheremanufacture is down 30, 40, sometimes 50 percent. nafta is the worst trade deal maybe ever signedanywhere, but certainly ever signed in this country. and now you want to approve trans-pacificpartnership. you were totally in favor of it. then you heard what i was saying, how badit is, and you said, i can’t win that debate. but you know that if you did win, you wouldapprove that, and that will be almost as bad as nafta.

nothing will ever top nafta. clinton: well, that is just not accurate. i was against it once it was finally negotiatedand the terms were laid out. i wrote about that in... trump: you called it the gold standard. trump: you called it the gold standard oftrade deals. you said it’s the finest deal you’ve everseen. clinton: no. trump: and then you heard what i said aboutit, and all of a sudden you were against it.

clinton: well, donald, i know you live inyour own reality, but that is not the facts. the facts are — i did say i hoped it wouldbe a good deal, but when it was negotiated... trump: not. clinton: ... which i was not responsible for,i concluded it wasn’t. i wrote about that in my book... trump: so is it president obama’s fault? clinton: ... before you even announced. trump: is it president obama’s fault? clinton: look, there are differences...

trump: secretary, is it president obama’sfault? clinton: there are... trump: because he’s pushing it. clinton: there are different views about what’sgood for our country, our economy, and our leadership in the world. and i think it’s important to look at whatwe need to do to get the economy going again. that’s why i said new jobs with rising incomes,investments, not in more tax cuts that would add $5 trillion to the debt. trump: but you have no plan.

clinton: but in — oh, but i do. trump: secretary, you have no plan. clinton: in fact, i have written a book aboutit. it’s called “stronger together.” you can pick it up tomorrow at a bookstore... trump: that’s about all you’ve... holt: folks, we’re going to... clinton: ... or at an airport near you. holt: we’re going to move to...

clinton: but it’s because i see this — weneed to have strong growth, fair growth, sustained growth. we also have to look at how we help familiesbalance the responsibilities at home and the responsibilities at business. so we have a very robust set of plans. and people have looked at both of our plans,have concluded that mine would create 10 million jobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs,and explode the debt which would have a recession. trump: you are going to approve one of thebiggest tax cuts in history. you are going to approve one of the biggesttax increases in history.

you are going to drive business out. your regulations are a disaster, and you’regoing to increase regulations all over the place. and by the way, my tax cut is the biggestsince ronald reagan. i’m very proud of it. it will create tremendous numbers of new jobs. but regulations, you are going to regulatethese businesses out of existence. when i go around — lester, i tell you this,i’ve been all over. and when i go around, despite the tax cut,the thing — the things that business as

in people like the most is the fact that i’mcutting regulation. you have regulations on top of regulations,and new companies cannot form and old companies are going out of business. and you want to increase the regulations andmake them even worse. i’m going to cut regulations. i’m going to cut taxes big league, and you’regoing to raise taxes big league, end of story. holt: let me get you to pause right there,because we’re going to move into — we’re going to move into the next segment. we’re going to talk taxes...

clinton: that can’t — that can’t beleft to stand. holt: please just take 30 seconds and thenwe’re going to go on. clinton: i kind of assumed that there wouldbe a lot of these charges and claims, and so... trump: facts. clinton: so we have taken the home page ofmy website, hillaryclinton.com, and we’ve turned it into a fact-checker. so if you want to see in real-time what thefacts are, please go and take a look. because what i have proposed...

trump: and take a look at mine, also, andyou’ll see. clinton: ... would not add a penny to thedebt, and your plans would add $5 trillion to the debt. what i have proposed would cut regulationsand streamline them for small businesses. what i have proposed would be paid for byraising taxes on the wealthy, because they have made all the gains in the economy. and i think it’s time that the wealthy andcorporations paid their fair share to support this country. holt: well, you just opened the next segment.

trump: well, could i just finish — i thinki... holt: i’m going to give you a chance righthere... trump: i think i should — you go to herwebsite, and you take a look at her website. holt: ... with a new 15-minute segment... trump: she’s going to raise taxes $1.3 trillion. holt: mr. trump, i’m going to... trump: and look at her website. you know what? it’s no difference than this.

she’s telling us how to fight isis. just go to her website. she tells you how to fight isis on her website. i don’t think general douglas macarthurwould like that too much. holt: the next segment, we’re continuing... clinton: well, at least i have a plan to fightisis. holt: ... achieving prosperity... trump: no, no, you’re telling the enemyeverything you want to do. clinton: no, we’re not.

no, we’re not.trump: see, you’re tellingthe enemy everything you want to do. no wonder you’ve been fighting — no wonderyou’ve been fighting isis your entire adult life. clinton: that’s a — that’s — go tothe — please, fact checkers, get to work. holt: ok, you are unpacking a lot here. and we’re still on the issue of achievingprosperity. and i want to talk about taxes. the fundamental difference between the twoof you concerns the wealthy. secretary clinton, you’re calling for atax increase on the wealthiest americans.

i’d like you to further defend that. and, mr. trump, you’re calling for tax cutsfor the wealthy. i’d like you to defend that. and this next two-minute answer goes to you,mr. trump. trump: well, i’m really calling for majorjobs, because the wealthy are going create tremendous jobs. they’re going to expand their companies. they’re going to do a tremendous job. i’m getting rid of the carried interestprovision.

and if you really look, it’s not a tax — it’sreally not a great thing for the wealthy. it’s a great thing for the middle class. it’s a great thing for companies to expand. and when these people are going to put billionsand billions of dollars into companies, and when they’re going to bring $2.5 trillionback from overseas, where they can’t bring the money back, because politicians like secretaryclinton won’t allow them to bring the money back, because the taxes are so onerous, andthe bureaucratic red tape, so what — is so bad. so what they’re doing is they’re leavingour country, and they’re, believe it or

not, leaving because taxes are too high andbecause some of them have lots of money outside of our country. and instead of bringing it back and puttingthe money to work, because they can’t work out a deal to — and everybody agrees itshould be brought back. instead of that, they’re leaving our countryto get their money, because they can’t bring their money back into our country, becauseof bureaucratic red tape, because they can’t get together. because we have — we have a president thatcan’t sit them around a table and get them to approve something.

and here’s the thing. republicans and democrats agree that thisshould be done, $2.5 trillion. i happen to think it’s double that. it’s probably $5 trillion that we can’tbring into our country, lester. and with a little leadership, you’d getit in here very quickly, and it could be put to use on the inner cities and lots of otherthings, and it would be beautiful. but we have no leadership. and honestly, that starts with secretary clinton. holt: all right.

you have two minutes of the same questionto defend tax increases on the wealthiest americans, secretary clinton. clinton: i have a feeling that by, the endof this evening, i’m going to be blamed for everything that’s ever happened. trump: why not? clinton: why not? yeah, why not? (laughter) you know, just join the debate by saying morecrazy things.

now, let me say this, it is absolutely thecase... trump: there’s nothing crazy about not lettingour companies bring their money back into their country. holt: this is — this is secretary clinton’stwo minutes, please. trump: yes. clinton: yeah, well, let’s start the clockagain, lester. we’ve looked at your tax proposals. i don’t see changes in the corporate taxrates or the kinds of proposals you’re referring to that would cause the repatriation, bringingback of money that’s stranded overseas.

i happen to support that. trump: then you didn’t read it. clinton: i happen to — i happen to supportthat in a way that will actually work to our benefit. but when i look at what you have proposed,you have what is called now the trump loophole, because it would so advantage you and thebusiness you do. you’ve proposed an approach that has a... trump: who gave it that name? the first i’ve — who gave it that name?

holt: mr. trump, this is secretary clinton’stwo minutes. clinton: ... $4 billion tax benefit for yourfamily. and when you look at what you are proposing... trump: how much? how much for my family? clinton: ... it is... trump: lester, how much? clinton: ... as i said, trumped-up trickle-down. trickle-down did not work.

it got us into the mess we were in, in 2008and 2009. slashing taxes on the wealthy hasn’t worked. and a lot of really smart, wealthy peopleknow that. and they are saying, hey, we need to do moreto make the contributions we should be making to rebuild the middle class. clinton: i don’t think top-down works inamerica. i think building the middle class, investingin the middle class, making college debt-free so more young people can get their education,helping people refinance their — their debt from college at a lower rate.

those are the kinds of things that will reallyboost the economy. broad-based, inclusive growth is what we needin america, not more advantages for people at the very top. holt: mr. trump, we’re... trump: typical politician. all talk, no action. sounds good, doesn’t work. never going to happen. our country is suffering because people likesecretary clinton have made such bad decisions

in terms of our jobs and in terms of what’sgoing on. now, look, we have the worst revival of aneconomy since the great depression. and believe me: we’re in a bubble rightnow. and the only thing that looks good is thestock market, but if you raise interest rates even a little bit, that’s going to comecrashing down. we are in a big, fat, ugly bubble. and we better be awfully careful. and we have a fed that’s doing politicalthings. this janet yellen of the fed.

the fed is doing political — by keepingthe interest rates at this level. and believe me: the day obama goes off, andhe leaves, and goes out to the golf course for the rest of his life to play golf, whenthey raise interest rates, you’re going to see some very bad things happen, becausethe fed is not doing their job. the fed is being more political than secretaryclinton. holt: mr. trump, we’re talking about theburden that americans have to pay, yet you have not released your tax returns. and the reason nominees have released theirreturns for decades is so that voters will know if their potential president owes moneyto — who he owes it to and any business

conflicts. don’t americans have a right to know ifthere are any conflicts of interest? trump: i don’t mind releasing — i’munder a routine audit. and it’ll be released. and — as soon as the audit’s finished,it will be released. but you will learn more about donald trumpby going down to the federal elections, where i filed a 104-page essentially financial statementof sorts, the forms that they have. it shows income — in fact, the income — ijust looked today — the income is filed at $694 million for this past year, $694 million.

if you would have told me i was going to makethat 15 or 20 years ago, i would have been very surprised. but that’s the kind of thinking that ourcountry needs. when we have a country that’s doing so badly,that’s being ripped off by every single country in the world, it’s the kind of thinkingthat our country needs, because everybody — lester, we have a trade deficit with allof the countries that we do business with, of almost $800 billion a year. you know what that is? that means, who’s negotiating these tradedeals?

we have people that are political hacks negotiatingour trade deals. holt: the irs says an audit... holt: ... of your taxes — you’re perfectlyfree to release your taxes during an audit. and so the question, does the public’s rightto know outweigh your personal... trump: well, i told you, i will release themas soon as the audit. look, i’ve been under audit almost for 15years. i know a lot of wealthy people that have neverbeen audited. i said, do you get audited? i get audited almost every year.

and in a way, i should be complaining. i’m not even complaining. i don’t mind it. it’s almost become a way of life. i get audited by the irs. but other people don’t. i will say this. we have a situation in this country that hasto be taken care of. i will release my tax returns — againstmy lawyer’s wishes — when she releases

her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. as soon as she releases them, i will release. i will release my tax returns. and that’s against — my lawyers, theysay, “don’t do it.” i will tell you this. no — in fact, watching shows, they’rereading the papers. almost every lawyer says, you don’t releaseyour returns until the audit’s complete. when the audit’s complete, i’ll do it. but i would go against them if she releasesher e-mails.

holt: so it’s negotiable? trump: it’s not negotiable, no. let her release the e-mails. why did she delete 33,000... holt: well, i’ll let her answer that. but let me just admonish the audience onemore time. there was an agreement. we did ask you to be silent, so it would behelpful for us. secretary clinton?

clinton: well, i think you’ve seen anotherexample of bait-and- switch here. for 40 years, everyone running for presidenthas released their tax returns. you can go and see nearly, i think, 39, 40years of our tax returns, but everyone has done it. we know the irs has made clear there is noprohibition on releasing it when you’re under audit. so you’ve got to ask yourself, why won’the release his tax returns? and i think there may be a couple of reasons. first, maybe he’s not as rich as he sayshe is.

second, maybe he’s not as charitable ashe claims to be. clinton: third, we don’t know all of hisbusiness dealings, but we have been told through investigative reporting that he owes about$650 million to wall street and foreign banks. or maybe he doesn’t want the american people,all of you watching tonight, to know that he’s paid nothing in federal taxes, becausethe only years that anybody’s ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turnthem over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showedhe didn’t pay any federal income tax. trump: that makes me smart. clinton: so if he’s paid zero, that meanszero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools

or health. and i think probably he’s not all that enthusiasticabout having the rest of our country see what the real reasons are, because it must be somethingreally important, even terrible, that he’s trying to hide. and the financial disclosure statements, theydon’t give you the tax rate. they don’t give you all the details thattax returns would. and it just seems to me that this is somethingthat the american people deserve to see. and i have no reason to believe that he’sever going to release his tax returns, because there’s something he’s hiding.

and we’ll guess. we’ll keep guessing at what it might bethat he’s hiding. but i think the question is, were he everto get near the white house, what would be those conflicts? who does he owe money to? well, he owes you the answers to that, andhe should provide them. holt: he also — he also raised the issueof your e-mails. do you want to respond to that? clinton: i do.

you know, i made a mistake using a privatee- mail. trump: that’s for sure. clinton: and if i had to do it over again,i would, obviously, do it differently. but i’m not going to make any excuses. it was a mistake, and i take responsibilityfor that. trump: that was more than a mistake. that was done purposely. ok? that was not a mistake.

when you have your staff taking the fifthamendment, taking the fifth so they’re not prosecuted, when you have the man that setup the illegal server taking the fifth, i think it’s disgraceful. and believe me, this country thinks it’s— really thinks it’s disgraceful, also. as far as my tax returns, you don’t learnthat much from tax returns. that i can tell you. you learn a lot from financial disclosure. and you should go down and take a look atthat. the other thing, i’m extremely underleveraged.

the report that said $650 — which, by theway, a lot of friends of mine that know my business say, boy, that’s really not a lotof money. it’s not a lot of money relative to whati had. the buildings that were in question, theysaid in the same report, which was — actually, it wasn’t even a bad story, to be honestwith you, but the buildings are worth $3.9 billion. and the $650 isn’t even on that. but it’s not $650. it’s much less than that.

but i could give you a list of banks, i would— if that would help you, i would give you a list of banks. these are very fine institutions, very finebanks. i could do that very quickly. i am very underleveraged. i have a great company. i have a tremendous income. and the reason i say that is not in a braggadociosway. it’s because it’s about time that thiscountry had somebody running it that has an

idea about money. when we have $20 trillion in debt, and ourcountry’s a mess, you know, it’s one thing to have $20 trillion in debt and our roadsare good and our bridges are good and everything’s in great shape, our airports. our airports are like from a third world country. you land at laguardia, you land at kennedy,you land at lax, you land at newark, and you come in from dubai and qatar and you see theseincredible — you come in from china, you see these incredible airports, and you land— we’ve become a third world country. so the worst of all things has happened.

we owe $20 trillion, and we’re a mess. we haven’t even started. and we’ve spent $6 trillion in the middleeast, according to a report that i just saw. whether it’s 6 or 5, but it looks like it’s6, $6 trillion in the middle east, we could have rebuilt our country twice. and it’s really a shame. and it’s politicians like secretary clintonthat have caused this problem. our country has tremendous problems. we’re a debtor nation.

we’re a serious debtor nation. and we have a country that needs new roads,new tunnels, new bridges, new airports, new schools, new hospitals. and we don’t have the money, because it’sbeen squandered on so many of your ideas. holt: we’ll let you respond and we’llmove on to the next segment. clinton: and maybe because you haven’t paidany federal income tax for a lot of years. and the other thing i think is important... trump: it would be squandered, too, believeme. clinton: ... is if your — if your main claimto be president of the united states is your

business, then i think we should talk aboutthat. you know, your campaign manager said thatyou built a lot of businesses on the backs of little guys. and, indeed, i have met a lot of the peoplewho were stiffed by you and your businesses, donald. i’ve met dishwashers, painters, architects,glass installers, marble installers, drapery installers, like my dad was, who you refusedto pay when they finished the work that you asked them to do. we have an architect in the audience who designedone of your clubhouses at one of your golf

courses. it’s a beautiful facility. it immediately was put to use. and you wouldn’t pay what the man neededto be paid, what he was charging you to do... trump: maybe he didn’t do a good job andi was unsatisfied with his work... clinton: well, to... trump: which our country should do, too. clinton: do the thousands of people that youhave stiffed over the course of your business not deserve some kind of apology from someonewho has taken their labor, taken the goods

that they produced, and then refused to paythem? i can only say that i’m certainly relievedthat my late father never did business with you. he provided a good middle-class life for us,but the people he worked for, he expected the bargain to be kept on both sides. and when we talk about your business, you’vetaken business bankruptcy six times. there are a lot of great businesspeople thathave never taken bankruptcy once. you call yourself the king of debt. you talk about leverage.

you even at one time suggested that you wouldtry to negotiate down the national debt of the united states. trump: wrong. wrong. clinton: well, sometimes there’s not a directtransfer of skills from business to government, but sometimes what happened in business wouldbe really bad for government. holt: let’s let mr. trump... clinton: and we need to be very clear aboutthat. trump: so, yeah, i think — i do think it’stime.

look, it’s all words, it’s all sound bites. i built an unbelievable company. some of the greatest assets anywhere in theworld, real estate assets anywhere in the world, beyond the united states, in europe,lots of different places. it’s an unbelievable company. but on occasion, four times, we used certainlaws that are there. and when secretary clinton talks about peoplethat didn’t get paid, first of all, they did get paid a lot, but taken advantage ofthe laws of the nation. now, if you want to change the laws, you’vebeen there a long time, change the laws.

but i take advantage of the laws of the nationbecause i’m running a company. my obligation right now is to do well formyself, my family, my employees, for my companies. and that’s what i do. but what she doesn’t say is that tens ofthousands of people that are unbelievably happy and that love me. i’ll give you an example. we’re just opening up on pennsylvania avenueright next to the white house, so if i don’t get there one way, i’m going to get to pennsylvaniaavenue another. but we’re opening the old post office.

under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendousmoney. i’m a year ahead of schedule. and that’s what this country should be doing. we build roads and they cost two and threeand four times what they’re supposed to cost. we buy products for our military and theycome in at costs that are so far above what they were supposed to be, because we don’thave people that know what they’re doing. when we look at the budget, the budget isbad to a large extent because we have people that have no idea as to what to do and howto buy.

the trump international is way under budgetand way ahead of schedule. and we should be able to do that for our country. holt: well, we’re well behind schedule,so i want to move to our next segment. we move into our next segment talking aboutamerica’s direction. and let’s start by talking about race. the share of americans who say race relationsare bad in this country is the highest it’s been in decades, much of it amplified by shootingsof african-americans by police, as we’ve seen recently in charlotte and tulsa. race has been a big issue in this campaign,and one of you is going to have to bridge

a very wide and bitter gap. so how do you heal the divide? secretary clinton, you get two minutes onthis. clinton: well, you’re right. race remains a significant challenge in ourcountry. unfortunately, race still determines too much,often determines where people live, determines what kind of education in their public schoolsthey can get, and, yes, it determines how they’re treated in the criminal justicesystem. we’ve just seen those two tragic examplesin both tulsa and charlotte.

and we’ve got to do several things at thesame time. we have to restore trust between communitiesand the police. we have to work to make sure that our policeare using the best training, the best techniques, that they’re well prepared to use forceonly when necessary. everyone should be respected by the law, andeveryone should respect the law. trump: you need better relationships betweenthe communities and the police, because in some cases, it’s not good. but you look at dallas, where the relationshipswere really studied, the relationships were really a beautiful thing, and then five policeofficers were killed one night very violently.

so there’s some bad things going on. some really bad things. holt: secretary clinton... trump: but we need — lester, we need lawand order. and we need law and order in the inner cities,because the people that are most affected by what’s happening are african-americanand hispanic people. and it’s very unfair to them what our politiciansare allowing to happen. first clinton and trump debate: analysisthe times analyzed the first presidential debate between hillary clinton and donaldj. trump in real time.

holt: secretary clinton? clinton: well, i’ve heard — i’ve hearddonald say this at his rallies, and it’s really unfortunate that he paints such a direnegative picture of black communities in our trump: ugh. clinton: you know, the vibrancy of the blackchurch, the black businesses that employ so many people, the opportunities that so manyfamilies are working to provide for their kids. there’s a lot that we should be proud ofand we should be supporting and lifting up. but we do always have to make sure we keeppeople safe.

there are the right ways of doing it, andthen there are ways that are ineffective. stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutionaland, in part, because it was ineffective. it did not do what it needed to do. now, i believe in community policing. and, in fact, violent crime is one-half ofwhat it was in 1991. property crime is down 40 percent. we just don’t want to see it creep backup. we’ve had 25 years of very good cooperation. but there were some problems, some unintendedconsequences.

too many young african-american and latinomen ended up in jail for nonviolent offenses. and it’s just a fact that if you’re ayoung african-american man and you do the same thing as a young white man, you are morelikely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and incarcerated. so we’ve got to address the systemic racismin our criminal justice system. we cannot just say law and order. we have to say — we have to come forwardwith a plan that is going to divert people from the criminal justice system, deal withmandatory minimum sentences, which have put too many people away for too long for doingtoo little.

we need to have more second chance programs. i’m glad that we’re ending private prisonsin the federal system; i want to see them ended in the state system. you shouldn’t have a profit motivation tofill prison cells with young americans. so there are some positive ways we can workon this. and i believe strongly that commonsense gunsafety measures would assist us. right now — and this is something donaldhas supported, along with the gun lobby — right now, we’ve got too many military- styleweapons on the streets. in a lot of places, our police are outgunned.

we need comprehensive background checks, andwe need to keep guns out of the hands of those who will do harm. and we finally need to pass a prohibitionon anyone who’s on the terrorist watch list from being able to buy a gun in our country. if you’re too dangerous to fly, you aretoo dangerous to buy a gun. so there are things we can do, and we oughtto do it in a bipartisan way. holt: secretary clinton, last week, you saidwe’ve got to do everything possible to improve policing, to go right at implicit bias. do you believe that police are implicitlybiased against black people?

clinton: lester, i think implicit bias isa problem for everyone, not just police. i think, unfortunately, too many of us inour great country jump to conclusions about each other. and therefore, i think we need all of us tobe asking hard questions about, you know, why am i feeling this way? but when it comes to policing, since it canhave literally fatal consequences, i have said, in my first budget, we would put moneyinto that budget to help us deal with implicit bias by retraining a lot of our police officers. i’ve met with a group of very distinguished,experienced police chiefs a few weeks ago.

they admit it’s an issue. they’ve got a lot of concerns. mental health is one of the biggest concerns,because now police are having to handle a lot of really difficult mental health problemson the street. clinton: they want support, they want moretraining, they want more assistance. and i think the federal government could bein a position where we would offer and provide that. holt: mr. trump... trump: i’d like to respond to that.

holt: please. trump: first of all, i agree, and a lot ofpeople even within my own party want to give certain rights to people on watch lists andno- fly lists. i agree with you. when a person is on a watch list or a no-flylist, and i have the endorsement of the nra, which i’m very proud of. these are very, very good people, and they’reprotecting the second amendment. but i think we have to look very stronglyat no-fly lists and watch lists. and when people are on there, even if theyshouldn’t be on there, we’ll help them,

we’ll help them legally, we’ll help themget off. but i tend to agree with that quite strongly. i do want to bring up the fact that you werethe one that brought up the words super-predator about young black youth. and that’s a term that i think was a — it’s— it’s been horribly met, as you know. i think you’ve apologized for it. but i think it was a terrible thing to say. and when it comes to stop-and-frisk, you know,you’re talking about takes guns away. well, i’m talking about taking guns awayfrom gangs and people that use them.

and i don’t think — i really don’t thinkyou disagree with me on this, if you want to know the truth. i think maybe there’s a political reasonwhy you can’t say it, but i really don’t believe — in new york city, stop-and-frisk,we had 2,200 murders, and stop-and-frisk brought it down to 500 murders. five hundred murders is a lot of murders. it’s hard to believe, 500 is like supposedto be good? but we went from 2,200 to 500. and it was continued on by mayor bloomberg.

and it was terminated by current mayor. but stop-and- frisk had a tremendous impacton the safety of new york city. tremendous beyond belief. so when you say it has no impact, it reallydid. it had a very, very big impact. clinton: well, it’s also fair to say, ifwe’re going to talk about mayors, that under the current mayor, crime has continued todrop, including murders. so there is... trump: no, you’re wrong.

you’re wrong. clinton: no, i’m not. trump: murders are up. all right. you check it. clinton: new york — new york has done anexcellent job. and i give credit — i give credit acrossthe board going back two mayors, two police chiefs, because it has worked. and other communities need to come togetherto do what will work, as well.

look, one murder is too many. but it is important that we learn about whathas been effective. and not go to things that sound good thatreally did not have the kind of impact that we would want. who disagrees with keeping neighborhoods safe? but let’s also add, no one should disagreeabout respecting the rights of young men who live in those neighborhoods. and so we need to do a better job of working,again, with the communities, faith communities, business communities, as well as the policeto try to deal with this problem.

holt: this conversation is about race. and so, mr. trump, i have to ask you for five... trump: i’d like to just respond, if i might. holt: please — 20 seconds. trump: i’d just like to respond. holt: please respond, then i’ve got a quickfollow-up for you. trump: i will. look, the african-american community has beenlet down by our politicians. they talk good around election time, likeright now, and after the election, they said,

see ya later, i’ll see you in four years. the african-american community — because— look, the community within the inner cities has been so badly treated. they’ve been abused and used in order toget votes by democrat politicians, because that’s what it is. they’ve controlled these communities forup to 100 years. holt: mr. trump, let me... clinton: well, i — i do think... trump: and i will tell you,

holt: good evening from hofstra universityin hempstead, new york. i’m lester holt, anchor of “nbc nightly news.” i want towelcome you to the first presidential debate. the participants tonight are donald trumpand hillary clinton. this debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates,a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. the commission drafted tonight’s format, andthe rules have been agreed to by the campaigns. the 90-minute debate is divided into six segments,each 15 minutes long. we’ll explore three topic areas tonight: achieving prosperity;america’s direction; and securing america. and they will each have up to two minutesto respond. from that point until the end of the segment, we’ll have an open discussion.

the questions are mine and have not been sharedwith the commission or the campaigns. the audience here in the room has agreed to remainsilent so that we can focus on what the candidates are saying. everyone, there are two more presidentialdebates scheduled. we are going to focus on many of the issues that voters tell us aremost important, and we’re going to press for specifics. i am honored to have this role,but this evening belongs to the candidates and, just as important, to the american people. as well as your visions and your values. so,let’s begin. we’re calling this opening segment “achievingprosperity.” and central to that is jobs.

there are two economic realities in americatoday. there’s been a record six straight years of job growth, and new census numbersshow incomes have increased at a record rate after years of stagnation. however, incomeinequality remains significant, and nearly half of americans are living paycheck to paycheck. kind of future we’ll build together. todayis my granddaughter’s second birthday, so i think about this a lot. first, we have tobuild an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top. that means we neednew jobs, good jobs, with rising incomes. i want us to invest in you. i want us to investin your future. that means jobs in infrastructure, in advanced manufacturing, innovation andtechnology, clean, renewable energy, and small

business, because most of the new jobs willcome from small business. we also have to make the economy fairer. that starts withraising the national minimum wage and also guarantee, finally, equal pay for women’swork. clinton: i also want to see more companiesdo profit-sharing. if you help create the profits, you should be able to share in them,not just the executives at the top. that you’re under. so let’s have paidfamily leave, earned sick days. let’s be sure we have affordable child care and debt-freecollege. how are we going to do it? we’re going todo it by having the wealthy pay their fair share and close the corporate loopholes.

be with you. we’re going to have a debatewhere we are talking about the important issues facing our country. you have to judge us,who can shoulder the immense, awesome responsibilities of the presidency, who can put into actionthe plans that will make your life better. mr. trump, the same question to you. it’sabout putting money — more money into the pockets of american workers. you have up totwo minutes. trump: thank you, lester. our jobs are fleeingthe country. they’re going to mexico. they’re going to many other countries. you look atwhat china is doing to our country in terms of making our product. they’re devaluingtheir currency, and there’s nobody in our government to fight them. and we have a verygood fight. and we have a winning fight. because

they’re using our country as a piggy bankto rebuild china, and many other countries so we’re losing our good jobs, so many ofthem. when you look at what’s happening in mexico, a friend of mine who builds plantssaid it’s the eighth wonder of the world. some of the best plants. with the united states,as he said, not so much. so ford is leaving. you see that, their smallcar division leaving. thousands of jobs leaving michigan, leaving ohio. they’re all leaving.and we can’t allow it to happen anymore. on that. we probably disagree a little bitas to numbers and amounts and what we’re going to do, but perhaps we’ll be talkingabout that later. but we have to stop our jobs from being stolenfrom us. we have to stop our companies from

leaving the united states and, with it, firingall of their people. all you have to do is take a look at carrier air conditioning inindianapolis. they left — fired 1,400 people. they’re going to mexico. so many hundredsand hundreds of companies are doing this. trump: we cannot let it happen. under my plan,i’ll be reducing taxes tremendously, from 35 percent to 15 percent for companies, smalland big businesses. that’s going to be a job creator like we haven’t seen since ronaldreagan. it’s going to be a beautiful thing to watch. companies will come. they will build. theywill expand. new companies will start. and i look very, very much forward to doing it.we have to renegotiate our trade deals, and

we have to stop these countries from stealingour companies and our jobs. clinton: well, i think that trade is an importantissue. of course, we are 5 percent of the world’s population; we have to trade withthe other 95 percent. and we need to have smart, fair trade deals. i call it trumped-up trickle-down, becausethat’s exactly what it would be. that is not how we grow the economy. i think we come at it from somewhat differentperspectives. i understand that. you know, donald was very fortunate in his life, andthat’s all to his benefit. he started his business with $14 million, borrowed from hisfather, and he really believes that the more

you help wealthy people, the better off we’llbe and that everything will work out from there. i don’t buy that. i have a different experience.my father was a small-businessman. he worked really hard. he printed drapery fabrics onlong tables, where he pulled out those fabrics and he went down with a silkscreen and dumpedthe paint in and took the squeegee and kept going. better we’ll grow. that’s the kind ofeconomy i want us to see again. holt: let me follow up with mr. trump, if you can. you’vetalked about creating 25 million jobs, and you’ve promised to bring back millions ofjobs for americans. how are you going to bring

back the industries that have left this countryfor cheaper labor overseas? how, specifically, are you going to tell american manufacturersthat you have to come back? our country’s in deep trouble. we don’tknow what we’re doing when it comes to devaluations and all of these countries all over the world,especially china. they’re the best, the best ever at it. what they’re doing to usis a very, very sad thing. so we have to do that. we have to renegotiateour trade deals. and, lester, they’re taking our jobs, they’re giving incentives, they’redoing things that, frankly, we don’t do. let me give you the example of mexico. theyhave a vat tax. we’re on a different system. when we sell into mexico, there’s a tax.when they sell in — automatic, 16 percent,

approximately. when they sell into us, there’sno tax. it’s a defective agreement. it’s been defective for a long time, many years,but the politicians haven’t done anything about it. now, in all fairness to secretary clinton— yes, is that ok? good. i want you to be very happy. it’s very important to me. really very recently. she’s been doing thisfor 30 years. and why hasn’t she made the agreements better? the nafta agreement isdefective. just because of the tax and many other reasons, but just because of the fact... right now, because of the fact that we’vecreated a movement. they should have been

doing this for years. what’s happened toour jobs and our country and our economy generally is — look, we owe $20 trillion. we cannotdo it any longer, lester. holt: back to the question, though. how doyou bring back — specifically bring back jobs, american manufacturers? how do you makethem bring the jobs back? trump: well, the first thing you do is don’tlet the jobs leave. the companies are leaving. i could name, i mean, there are thousandsof them. they’re leaving, and they’re leaving in bigger numbers than ever. luck. we wish you a lot of luck. but if youthink you’re going to make your air conditioners or your cars or your cookies or whatever youmake and bring them into our country without

a tax, you’re wrong. to leave, because in many cases, they ownthe companies. so what i’m saying is, we can stop them from leaving. we have to stopthem from leaving. and that’s a big, big factor. clinton: well, let’s stop for a second andremember where we were eight years ago. we had the worst financial crisis, the greatrecession, the worst since the 1930s. that was in large part because of tax policiesthat slashed taxes on the wealthy, failed in fact, donald was one of the people whorooted for the housing crisis. he said, back in 2006, “gee, i hope it does collapse,because then i can go in and buy some and

make some money.” well, it did collapse. clinton: nine million people — nine millionpeople lost their jobs. five million people lost their homes. and $13 trillion in familywealth was wiped out. now, we have come back from that abyss. andit has not been easy. so we’re now on the precipice of having a potentially much bettereconomy, but the last thing we need to do is to go back to the policies that failedus in the first place. where we can grow the economy. take cleanenergy. some country is going to be the clean- energy superpower of the 21st century. donaldthinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the chinese. i think it’s real.

trump: i did not. i did not. i do not saythat. and abroad. and here’s what we can do. wecan deploy a half a billion more solar panels. we can have enough clean energy to power everyhome. we can build a new modern electric grid. trump: she talks about solar panels. we investedin a solar company, our country. that was a disaster. they lost plenty of money on thatone. out of work. our energy policies are a disaster.our country is losing so much in terms of energy, in terms of paying off our debt. youcan’t do what you’re looking to do with $20 trillion in debt. and he’s topped it. he’s doubled it ina course of almost eight years, seven-and-a-half

years, to be semi- exact. so i will tell you this. we have to do a muchbetter job at keeping our jobs. and we have to do a much better job at giving companiesincentives to build new companies or to expand, because they’re not doing it. and, hillary, i’d just ask you this. you’vebeen doing this for 30 years. why are you just thinking about these solutions rightnow? for 30 years, you’ve been doing it, and now you’re just starting to think ofsolutions. trump: i will bring — excuse me. i willbring back jobs. you can’t bring back jobs. trump: yeah, for 30 years. clinton: and ihave — well, not quite that long. i think

my husband did a pretty good job in the 1990s.i think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again... clinton: incomes went up for everybody. manufacturingjobs went up also in the 1990s, if we’re actually going to look at the facts. them all to the same test. will they createjobs in america? will they raise incomes in america? and are they good for our nationalsecurity? some of them i voted for. the biggest one, a multinational one known as cafta, ivoted against. and because i hold the same standards as i look at all of these tradedeals. but let’s not assume that trade is the onlychallenge we have in the economy. i think

it is a part of it, and i’ve said what i’mgoing to do. i’m going to have a special prosecutor. we’re going to enforce the tradedeals we have, and we’re going to hold people accountable. we increased them to china 50 percent. soi know how to really work to get new jobs and to get exports that helped to create morenew jobs. trump: you haven’t done it. you haven’tdone it. clinton: well, that’s your opinion. thatis your opinion. and now you want to approve trans-pacificpartnership. you were totally in favor of it. then you heard what i was saying, howbad it is, and you said, i can’t win that

debate. but you know that if you did win,you would approve that, and that will be almost as bad as nafta. nothing will ever top nafta. clinton: well, that is just not accurate.i was against it once it was finally negotiated and the terms were laid out. i wrote aboutthat in... trump: you called it the gold standard oftrade deals. you said it’s the finest deal you’ve ever seen. clinton: ... which i was not responsible for,i concluded it wasn’t. i wrote about that in my book... leadership in the world. and i think it’simportant to look at what we need to do to

get the economy going again. that’s whyi said new jobs with rising incomes, investments, not in more tax cuts that would add $5 trillionto the debt. clinton: in fact, i have written a book aboutit. it’s called “stronger together.” growth. we also have to look at how we helpfamilies balance the responsibilities at home and the responsibilities at business. so we have a very robust set of plans. andpeople have looked at both of our plans, have concluded that mine would create 10 millionjobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs, and explode the debt which would have a recession. trump: you are going to approve one of thebiggest tax cuts in history. you are going

to approve one of the biggest tax increasesin history. you are going to drive business out. your regulations are a disaster, andyou’re going to increase regulations all over the place. and by the way, my tax cut is the biggestsince ronald reagan. i’m very proud of it. it will create tremendous numbers of new jobs.but regulations, you are going to regulate these businesses out of existence. when i go around — lester, i tell you this,i’ve been all over. and when i go around, despite the tax cut, the thing — the thingsthat business as in people like the most is the fact that i’m cutting regulation. youhave regulations on top of regulations, and

new companies cannot form and old companiesare going out of business. and you want to increase the regulations and make them evenworse. i’m going to cut regulations. i’m goingto cut taxes big league, and you’re going to raise taxes big league, end of story. going to move into the next segment. we’regoing to talk taxes... turned it into a fact-checker. so if you wantto see in real-time what the facts are, please go and take a look. because what i have proposed... to the debt. what i have proposed would cutregulations and streamline them for small businesses. what i have proposed would bepaid for by raising taxes on the wealthy,

because they have made all the gains in theeconomy. and i think it’s time that the wealthy and corporations paid their fair shareto support this country. trump: and look at her website. you know what?it’s no difference than this. she’s telling us how to fight isis. just go to her website.she tells you how to fight isis on her website. clinton: no, we’re not. no, we’re not.trump:see, you’re telling the enemy everything you want to do. no wonder you’ve been fighting— no wonder you’ve been fighting isis your entire adult life. holt: ok, you are unpacking a lot here. andwe’re still on the issue of achieving prosperity. and i want to talk about taxes. the fundamentaldifference between the two of you concerns

the wealthy. i’d like you to further defend that. and,mr. trump, you’re calling for tax cuts for the wealthy. i’d like you to defend that.and this next two-minute answer goes to you, mr. trump. tremendous jobs. they’re going to expandtheir companies. they’re going to do a tremendous job. i’m getting rid of the carried interestprovision. and if you really look, it’s not a tax — it’s really not a great thingfor the wealthy. it’s a great thing for the middle class. it’s a great thing forcompanies to expand.

of our country. and instead of bringing itback and putting the money to work, because they can’t work out a deal to — and everybodyagrees it should be brought back. get together. because we have — we havea president that can’t sit them around a table and get them to approve something. and here’s the thing. republicans and democratsagree that this should be done, $2.5 trillion. i happen to think it’s double that. it’sprobably $5 trillion that we can’t bring into our country, lester. and with a littleleadership, you’d get it in here very quickly, and it could be put to use on the inner citiesand lots of other things, and it would be beautiful.

but we have no leadership. and honestly, thatstarts with secretary clinton. holt: all right. you have two minutes of thesame question to defend tax increases on the wealthiest americans, secretary clinton. clinton: why not? yeah, why not? you know, just join the debate by saying morecrazy things. now, let me say this, it is absolutely the case... clinton: yeah, well, let’s start the clockagain, lester. we’ve looked at your tax proposals. i don’t see changes in the corporatetax rates or the kinds of proposals you’re referring to that would cause the repatriation,bringing back of money that’s stranded overseas.

benefit. but when i look at what you haveproposed, you have what is called now the trump loophole, because it would so advantageyou and the business you do. you’ve proposed an approach that has a... trump: who gave it that name? the first i’ve— who gave it that name? clinton: ... $4 billion tax benefit for yourfamily. and when you look at what you are proposing... trump: how much? how much for my family? clinton:... it is... clinton: ... as i said, trumped-up trickle-down.trickle-down did not work. it got us into the mess we were in, in 2008 and 2009. slashingtaxes on the wealthy hasn’t worked.

and a lot of really smart, wealthy peopleknow that. and they are saying, hey, we need to do more to make the contributions we shouldbe making to rebuild the middle class. clinton: i don’t think top-down works in america.i think building the middle class, investing in the middle class, making college debt-freeso more young people can get their education, helping people refinance their — their debtfrom college at a lower rate. those are the kinds of things that will really boost theeconomy. broad-based, inclusive growth is what we need in america, not more advantagesfor people at the very top. trump: typical politician. all talk, no action.sounds good, doesn’t work. never going to happen. our country is suffering because peoplelike secretary clinton have made such bad

decisions in terms of our jobs and in termsof what’s going on. now, look, we have the worst revival of aneconomy since the great depression. and believe me: we’re in a bubble right now. and theonly thing that looks good is the stock market, but if you raise interest rates even a littlebit, that’s going to come crashing down. we are in a big, fat, ugly bubble. and webetter be awfully careful. and we have a fed that’s doing political things. this janetyellen of the fed. the fed is doing political — by keeping the interest rates at thislevel. and believe me: the day obama goes off, and he leaves, and goes out to the golfcourse for the rest of his life to play golf, when they raise interest rates, you’re goingto see some very bad things happen, because

the fed is not doing their job. the fed isbeing more political than secretary clinton. have not released your tax returns. and thereason nominees have released their returns for decades is so that voters will know iftheir potential president owes money to — who he owes it to and any business conflicts.don’t americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts of interest? trump: i don’t mind releasing — i’munder a routine audit. and it’ll be released. i filed a 104-page essentially financial statementof sorts, the forms that they have. it shows income — in fact, the income — i justlooked today — the income is filed at $694 million for this past year, $694 million.if you would have told me i was going to make

that 15 or 20 years ago, i would have beenvery surprised. but that’s the kind of thinking that ourcountry needs. when we have a country that’s doing so badly, that’s being ripped offby every single country in the world, it’s the kind of thinking that our country needs,because everybody — lester, we have a trade deficit with all of the countries that wedo business with, of almost $800 billion a year. you know what that is? that means, who’snegotiating these trade deals? trump: well, i told you, i will release themas soon as the audit. look, i’ve been under audit almost for 15 years. i know a lot ofwealthy people that have never been audited. i said, do you get audited? i get auditedalmost every year.

and in a way, i should be complaining. i’mnot even complaining. i don’t mind it. it’s almost become a way of life. i get auditedby the irs. but other people don’t. i will say this. we have a situation in thiscountry that has to be taken care of. i will release my tax returns — against my lawyer’swishes — when she releases her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. as soon as she releasesthem, i will release. i will release my tax returns. and that’sagainst — my lawyers, they say, “don’t do it.” i will tell you this. no — infact, watching shows, they’re reading the papers. almost every lawyer says, you don’trelease your returns until the audit’s complete. when the audit’s complete, i’ll do it.but i would go against them if she releases

her e-mails. trump: it’s not negotiable, no. let herrelease the e-mails. why did she delete 33,000... holt: well, i’ll let her answer that. butlet me just admonish the audience one more time. there was an agreement. we did ask youto be silent, so it would be helpful for us. clinton: well, i think you’ve seen anotherexample of bait-and- switch here. for 40 years, everyone running for president has releasedtheir tax returns. you can go and see nearly, i think, 39, 40 years of our tax returns,but everyone has done it. we know the irs has made clear there is no prohibition onreleasing it when you’re under audit. so you’ve got to ask yourself, why won’the release his tax returns? and i think there

may be a couple of reasons. first, maybe he’snot as rich as he says he is. second, maybe he’s not as charitable as he claims to be.clinton: third, we don’t know all of his business dealings, but we have been told throughinvestigative reporting that he owes about $650 million to wall street and foreign banks.or maybe he doesn’t want the american people, all of you watching tonight, to know thathe’s paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody’s ever seenwere a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he wastrying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn’t pay any federal income tax. or health. and i think probably he’s notall that enthusiastic about having the rest

of our country see what the real reasons are,because it must be something really important, even terrible, that he’s trying to hide. and the financial disclosure statements, theydon’t give you the tax rate. they don’t give you all the details that tax returnswould. and it just seems to me that this is something that the american people deserveto see. and i have no reason to believe that he’s ever going to release his tax returns,because there’s something he’s hiding. and we’ll guess. we’ll keep guessing atwhat it might be that he’s hiding. but i think the question is, were he ever to getnear the white house, what would be those conflicts? who does he owe money to? well,he owes you the answers to that, and he should

provide them. holt: he also — he also raised the issueof your e-mails. do you want to respond to that? clinton: i do. you know, i made a mistakeusing a private e- mail. trump: that’s for sure. clinton: and if i had to do it over again,i would, obviously, do it differently. but i’m not going to make any excuses. it wasa mistake, and i take responsibility for that. trump: that was more than a mistake. thatwas done purposely. ok? that was not a mistake. that was done purposely. when you have yourstaff taking the fifth amendment, taking the

fifth so they’re not prosecuted, when youhave the man that set up the illegal server taking the fifth, i think it’s disgraceful.and believe me, this country thinks it’s — really thinks it’s disgraceful, also. as far as my tax returns, you don’t learnthat much from tax returns. that i can tell you. you learn a lot from financial disclosure.and you should go down and take a look at the other thing, i’m extremely underleveraged.the report that said $650 — which, by the way, a lot of friends of mine that know mybusiness say, boy, that’s really not a lot of money. it’s not a lot of money relativeto what i had. billion. and the $650 isn’t even on that.but it’s not $650. it’s much less than

a list of banks. these are very fine institutions,very fine banks. i could do that very quickly. i am very underleveraged. i have a great company.i have a tremendous income. and the reason i say that is not in a braggadocios way. it’sbecause it’s about time that this country had somebody running it that has an idea aboutmoney. in great shape, our airports. our airportsare like from a third world country. so the worst of all things has happened. weowe $20 trillion, and we’re a mess. we haven’t even started. and we’ve spent $6 trillionin the middle east, according to a report that i just saw. whether it’s 6 or 5, butit looks like it’s 6, $6 trillion in the middle east, we could have rebuilt our countrytwice.

and it’s really a shame. and it’s politicianslike secretary clinton that have caused this problem. our country has tremendous problems.we’re a debtor nation. we’re a serious debtor nation. and we have a country thatneeds new roads, new tunnels, new bridges, new airports, new schools, new hospitals.and we don’t have the money, because it’s been squandered on so many of your ideas. business, then i think we should talk aboutthat. you know, your campaign manager said that you built a lot of businesses on thebacks of little guys. and, indeed, i have met a lot of the people who were stiffed byyou and your businesses, donald. i’ve met dishwashers, painters, architects, glass installers,marble installers, drapery installers, like

my dad was, who you refused to pay when theyfinished the work that you asked them to do. courses. it’s a beautiful facility. it immediatelywas put to use. and you wouldn’t pay what the man needed to be paid, what he was chargingyou to do... you. he provided a good middle-class lifefor us, but the people he worked for, he expected and when we talk about your business, you’vetaken business bankruptcy six times. there are a lot of great businesspeople that havenever taken bankruptcy once. you call yourself the king of debt. you talk about leverage.you even at one time suggested that you would try to negotiate down the national debt ofthe united states. trump: wrong. wrong.

trump: so, yeah, i think — i do think it’stime. look, it’s all words, it’s all sound bites. i built an unbelievable company. someof the greatest assets anywhere in the world, real estate assets anywhere in the world,beyond the united states, in europe, lots of different places. it’s an unbelievablecompany. but on occasion, four times, we used certainlaws that are there. and when secretary clinton talks about people that didn’t get paid,first of all, they did get paid a lot, but taken advantage of the laws of the nation. now, if you want to change the laws, you’vebeen there a long time, change the laws. but i take advantage of the laws of the nationbecause i’m running a company. my obligation

right now is to do well for myself, my family,my employees, for my companies. and that’s what i do. happy and that love me. i’ll give you anexample. we’re just opening up on pennsylvania avenue right next to the white house, so ifi don’t get there one way, i’m going to get to pennsylvania avenue another. but we’re opening the old post office. underbudget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money. i’m a year ahead of schedule. andthat’s what this country should be doing. cost. we buy products for our military andthey come in at costs that are so far above what they were supposed to be, because wedon’t have people that know what they’re

doing. that have no idea as to what to do and howto buy. the trump international is way under budget and way ahead of schedule. and we shouldbe able to do that for our country. holt: well, we’re well behind schedule,so i want to move to our next segment. we move into our next segment talking about america’sdirection. and let’s start by talking about race. seen recently in charlotte and tulsa. racehas been a big issue in this campaign, and one of you is going to have to bridge a verywide and bitter gap. so how do you heal the divide? secretary clinton,you get two minutes on this.

clinton: well, you’re right. race remainsa significant challenge in our country. unfortunately, race still determines too much, often determineswhere people live, determines what kind of education in their public schools they canget, and, yes, it determines how they’re treated in the criminal justice system. we’vejust seen those two tragic examples in both tulsa and charlotte. and we’ve got to do several things at thesame time. we have to restore trust between communities and the police. we have to workto make sure that our police are using the best training, the best techniques, that they’rewell prepared to use force only when necessary. everyone should be respected by the law, andeveryone should respect the law. trump: you

need better relationships between the communitiesand the police, because in some cases, it’s not good. so there’s some bad things going on. somereally bad things. trump: but we need — lester, we need lawand order. and we need law and order in the inner cities, because the people that aremost affected by what’s happening are african-american and hispanic people. and it’s very unfairto them what our politicians are allowing to happen. kids. there’s a lot that we should be proudof and we should be supporting and lifting up.

but we do always have to make sure we keeppeople safe. there are the right ways of doing it, and then there are ways that are ineffective.stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional and, in part, because it was ineffective.it did not do what it needed to do. now, i believe in community policing. and,in fact, violent crime is one-half of what it was in 1991. property crime is down 40percent. we just don’t want to see it creep back up. we’ve had 25 years of very goodcooperation. but there were some problems, some unintendedconsequences. too many young african-american and latino men ended up in jail for nonviolentoffenses. and it’s just a fact that if you’re a young african-american man and you do thesame thing as a young white man, you are more

likely to be arrested, charged, convicted,and incarcerated. so we’ve got to address the systemic racism in our criminal justicesystem. we cannot just say law and order. we need to have more second chance programs.i’m glad that we’re ending private prisons in the federal system; i want to see themended in the state system. you shouldn’t have a profit motivation to fill prison cellswith young americans. so there are some positive ways we can work on this. and i believe strongly that commonsense gunsafety measures would assist us. right now — and this is something donald has supported,along with the gun lobby — right now, we’ve got too many military- style weapons on thestreets. in a lot of places, our police are

outgunned. we need comprehensive backgroundchecks, and we need to keep guns out of the hands of those who will do harm. from being able to buy a gun in our country.if you’re too dangerous to fly, you are too dangerous to buy a gun. so there are thingswe can do, and we ought to do it in a bipartisan way. policing, to go right at implicit bias. doyou believe that police are implicitly biased against black people? clinton: lester, i think implicit bias isa problem for everyone, not just police. i think, unfortunately, too many of us in ourgreat country jump to conclusions about each

other. and therefore, i think we need allof us to be asking hard questions about, you know, why am i feeling this way? they admit it’s an issue. they’ve gota lot of concerns. mental health is one of the biggest concerns, because now police arehaving to handle a lot of really difficult mental health problems on the street. clinton: they want support, they want moretraining, they want more assistance. and i think the federal government could be in aposition where we would offer and provide certain rights to people on watch lists andno- fly lists. i agree with you. when a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and ihave the endorsement of the nra, which i’m

very proud of. these are very, very good people,and they’re protecting the second amendment. but i think we have to look very stronglyat no-fly lists and watch lists. and when people are on there, even if they shouldn’tbe on there, we’ll help them, we’ll help them legally, we’ll help them get off. buti tend to agree with that quite strongly. about young black youth. and that’s a termthat i think was a — it’s — it’s been horribly met, as you know. i think you’veapologized for it. but i think it was a terrible thing to say. and when it comes to stop-and-frisk, you know,you’re talking about takes guns away. well, i’m talking about taking guns away fromgangs and people that use them. and i don’t

think — i really don’t think you disagreewith me on this, if you want to know the truth. it down to 500 murders. five hundred murdersis a lot of murders. it’s hard to believe, 500 is like supposed to be good? but we went from 2,200 to 500. and it wascontinued on by mayor bloomberg. and it was terminated by current mayor. but stop-and-frisk had a tremendous impact on the safety of new york city. tremendous beyond belief.so when you say it has no impact, it really did. it had a very, very big impact. the current mayor, crime has continued todrop, including murders. so there is... trump: no, you’re wrong. you’re wrong.

trump: murders are up. all right. you checkit. clinton: new york — new york has done anexcellent job. and i give credit — i give credit across the board going back two mayors,two police chiefs, because it has worked. look, one murder is too many. but it is importantthat we learn about what has been effective. we would want. who disagrees with keepingneighborhoods safe? live in those neighborhoods. and so we needto do a better job of working, again, with the communities, faith communities, businesscommunities, as well as the police to try to deal with this problem. holt: this conversation is about race. andso, mr. trump, i have to ask you for five...

trump: i will. look, the african-americancommunity has been let down by our politicians. has been so badly treated. they’ve beenabused and used in order to get votes by democrat politicians, because that’s what it is.they’ve controlled these communities for up to 100 years. trump: and i will tell you, you look at theinner cities — and i just left detroit, and i just left philadelphia, and i just — youknow, you’ve seen me, i’ve been all over the place. you decided to stay home, and that’sok. but i will tell you, i’ve been all over. and i’ve met some of the greatest peoplei’ll ever meet within these communities. and they are very, very upset with what theirpoliticians have told them and what their

politicians have done. holt: mr. trump, i... clinton: i think — i think — i think donaldjust criticized me for preparing for this debate. and, yes, i did. and you know whatelse i prepared for? i prepared to be president. and i think that’s a good thing. holt: mr. trump, for five years, you perpetuateda false claim that the nation’s first black president was not a natural-born citizen.you questioned his legitimacy. in the last couple of weeks, you acknowledged what mostamericans have accepted for years: the president was born in the united states. can you tellus what took you so long?

trump: i’ll tell you very — well, justvery simple to say. sidney blumenthal works for the campaign and close — very closefriend of secretary clinton. and her campaign manager, patti doyle, went to — during thecampaign, her campaign against president obama, fought very hard. and you can go look it up,and you can check it out. trump: and if you look at cnn this past week, patti solis doylewas on wolf blitzer saying that this happened. blumenthal sent mcclatchy, highly respectedreporter at mcclatchy, to kenya to find out about it. they were pressing it very hard.she failed to get the birth certificate. when i got involved, i didn’t fail. i gothim to give the birth certificate. so i’m satisfied with it. and i’ll tell you whyi’m satisfied with it.

holt: that was... trump: because i want to get on to defeatingisis, because i want to get on to creating jobs, because i want to get on to having astrong border, because i want to get on to things that are very important to me and thatare very important to the country. holt: i will let you respond. it’s important.but i just want to get the answer here. the birth certificate was produced in 2011. you’vecontinued to tell the story and question the president’s legitimacy in 2012, ’13, ’14,’15... trump: yeah. holt: .... as recently as january. so thequestion is, what changed your mind?

trump: well, nobody was pressing it, nobodywas caring much about it. i figured you’d ask the question tonight, of course. but nobodywas caring much about it. but i was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate.and i think i did a good job. secretary clinton also fought it. i mean,you know — now, everybody in mainstream is going to say, oh, that’s not true. look,it’s true. sidney blumenthal sent a reporter — you just have to take a look at cnn, thelast week, the interview with your former campaign manager. and she was involved. butjust like she can’t bring back jobs, she can’t produce. holt: i’m sorry. i’m just going to followup — and i will let you respond to that,

because there’s a lot there. but we’retalking about racial healing in this segment. what do you say to americans, people of colorwho... trump: well, it was very — i say nothing.i say nothing, because i was able to get him to produce it. he should have produced ita long time before. i say nothing. but let me just tell you. when you talk abouthealing, i think that i’ve developed very, very good relationships over the last littlewhile with the african-american community. i think you can see that. and i feel that they really wanted me to cometo that conclusion. and i think i did a great job and a great service not only for the country,but even for the president, in getting him

to produce his birth certificate. clinton: well, just listen to what you heard. and clearly, as donald just admitted, he knewhe was going to stand on this debate stage, and lester holt was going to be asking usquestions, so he tried to put the whole racist birther lie to bed. but it can’t be dismissed that easily. hehas really started his political activity based on this racist lie that our first blackpresident was not an american citizen. there was absolutely no evidence for it, but hepersisted, he persisted year after year, because some of his supporters, people that he wastrying to bring into his fold, apparently

believed it or wanted to believe it. but, remember, donald started his career backin 1973 being sued by the justice department for racial discrimination because he wouldnot rent apartments in one of his developments to african-americans, and he made sure thatthe people who worked for him understood that was the policy. he actually was sued twiceby the justice department. so he has a long record of engaging in racistbehavior. and the birther lie was a very hurtful one. you know, barack obama is a man of greatdignity. and i could tell how much it bothered him and annoyed him that this was being toutedand used against him. but i like to remember what michelle obamasaid in her amazing speech at our democratic

national convention: when they go low, wego high. and barack obama went high, despite donald trump’s best efforts to bring himdown. holt: mr. trump, you can respond and we’regoing to move on to the next segment. trump: i would love to respond. first of all,i got to watch in preparing for this some of your debates against barack obama. youtreated him with terrible disrespect. and i watched the way you talk now about how lovelyeverything is and how wonderful you are. it doesn’t work that way. you were after him,you were trying to — you even sent out or your campaign sent out pictures of him ina certain garb, very famous pictures. i don’t think you can deny that.

but just last week, your campaign managersaid it was true. so when you tried to act holier than thou, it really doesn’t work.it really doesn’t. now, as far as the lawsuit, yes, when i wasvery young, i went into my father’s company, had a real estate company in brooklyn andqueens, and we, along with many, many other companies throughout the country — it wasa federal lawsuit — were sued. we settled the suit with zero — with no admission ofguilt. it was very easy to do. trump: i notice you bring that up a lot. and, you know, ialso notice the very nasty commercials that you do on me in so many different ways, whichi don’t do on you. maybe i’m trying to save the money.

but, frankly, i look — i look at that, andi say, isn’t that amazing? because i settled that lawsuit with no admission of guilt, butthat was a lawsuit brought against many real estate firms, and it’s just one of thosethings. i’ll go one step further. in palm beach,florida, tough community, a brilliant community, a wealthy community, probably the wealthiestcommunity there is in the world, i opened a club, and really got great credit for it.no discrimination against african- americans, against muslims, against anybody. and it’sa tremendously successful club. and i’m so glad i did it. and i have been given greatcredit for what i did. and i’m very, very proud of it. and that’s the way i feel.that is the true way i feel.

holt: our next segment is called “securingamerica.” we want to start with a 21st century war happening every day in this country. ourinstitutions are under cyber attack, and our secrets are being stolen. so my question is,who’s behind it? and how do we fight it? secretary clinton, this answer goes to you. clinton: well, i think cyber security, cyberwarfare will be one of the biggest challenges facing the next president, because clearlywe’re facing at this point two different kinds of adversaries. there are the independenthacking groups that do it mostly for commercial reasons to try to steal information that theycan use to make money. but increasingly, we are seeing cyber attackscoming from states, organs of states. the

most recent and troubling of these has beenrussia. there’s no doubt now that russia has used cyber attacks against all kinds oforganizations in our country, and i am deeply concerned about this. i know donald’s verypraiseworthy of vladimir putin, but putin is playing a really... clinton: ... tough, long game here. and oneof the things he’s done is to let loose cyber attackers to hack into government files,to hack into personal files, hack into the democratic national committee. and we recentlyhave learned that, you know, that this is one of their preferred methods of trying towreak havoc and collect information. we need to make it very clear — whether it’s russia,china, iran or anybody else — the united

states has much greater capacity. and we arenot going to sit idly by and permit state actors to go after our information, our private-sectorinformation or our public-sector information. and we’re going to have to make it clearthat we don’t want to use the kinds of tools that we have. we don’t want to engage ina different kind of warfare. but we will defend the citizens of this country. and the russians need to understand that.i think they’ve been treating it as almost a probing, how far would we go, how much wouldwe do. and that’s why i was so — i was so shocked when donald publicly invited putinto hack into americans. that is just unacceptable. it’s one of the reasons why 50 nationalsecurity officials who served in republican

information — in administrations... holt: your two minutes have expired. clinton: ... have said that donald is unfitto be the commander- in-chief. it’s comments like that that really worry people who understandthe threats that we face. holt: mr. trump, you have two minutes andthe same question. who’s behind it? and how do we fight it? trump: i do want to say that i was just endorsed— and more are coming next week — it will be over 200 admirals, many of them here — admiralsand generals endorsed me to lead this country. that just happened, and many more are coming.and i’m very proud of it.

in addition, i was just endorsed by ice. they’venever endorsed anybody before on immigration. i was just endorsed by ice. i was just recentlyendorsed — 16,500 border patrol agents. so when secretary clinton talks about this,i mean, i’ll take the admirals and i’ll take the generals any day over the politicalhacks that i see that have led our country so brilliantly over the last 10 years withtheir knowledge. ok? because look at the mess that we’re in. look at the mess that we’rein. as far as the cyber, i agree to parts of whatsecretary clinton said. we should be better than anybody else, and perhaps we’re not.i don’t think anybody knows it was russia that broke into the dnc. she’s saying russia,russia, russia, but i don’t — maybe it

was. i mean, it could be russia, but it couldalso be china. it could also be lots of other people. it also could be somebody sittingon their bed that weighs 400 pounds, ok? trump: you don’t know who broke in to dnc. but what did we learn with dnc? we learnedthat bernie sanders was taken advantage of by your people, by debbie wasserman schultz.look what happened to her. but bernie sanders was taken advantage of. that’s what we learned. now, whether that was russia, whether thatwas china, whether it was another country, we don’t know, because the truth is, underpresident obama we’ve lost control of things that we used to have control over.

we came in with the internet, we came up withthe internet, and i think secretary clinton and myself would agree very much, when youlook at what isis is doing with the internet, they’re beating us at our own game. isis. so we have to get very, very tough on cyberand cyber warfare. it is — it is a huge problem. i have a son. he’s 10 years old.he has computers. he is so good with these computers, it’s unbelievable. the securityaspect of cyber is very, very tough. and maybe it’s hardly doable. but i will say, we are not doing the job weshould be doing. but that’s true throughout our whole governmental society. we have somany things that we have to do better, lester,

and certainly cyber is one of them. clinton: well, i think there are a numberof issues that we should be addressing. i have put forth a plan to defeat isis. it doesinvolve going after them online. i think we need to do much more with our tech companiesto prevent isis and their operatives from being able to use the internet to radicalize,even direct people in our country and europe and elsewhere. but we also have to intensify our air strikesagainst isis and eventually support our arab and kurdish partners to be able to actuallytake out isis in raqqa, end their claim of being a caliphate.

we’re making progress. our military is assistingin iraq. and we’re hoping that within the year we’ll be able to push isis out of iraqand then, you know, really squeeze them in syria. but we have to be cognizant of the fact thatthey’ve had foreign fighters coming to volunteer for them, foreign money, foreign weapons,so we have to make this the top priority. and i would also do everything possible totake out their leadership. i was involved in a number of efforts to take out al qaidaleadership when i was secretary of state, including, of course, taking out bin laden.and i think we need to go after baghdadi, as well, make that one of our organizing principles.because we’ve got to defeat isis, and we’ve

got to do everything we can to disrupt theirpropaganda efforts online. holt: you mention isis, and we think of isiscertainly as over there, but there are american citizens who have been inspired to commitacts of terror on american soil, the latest incident, of course, the bombings we justsaw in new york and new jersey, the knife attack at a mall in minnesota, in the lastyear, deadly attacks in san bernardino and orlando. i’ll ask this to both of you. tellus specifically how you would prevent homegrown attacks by american citizens, mr. trump? trump: well, first i have to say one thing,very important. secretary clinton is talking about taking out isis. “we will take outisis.” well, president obama and secretary

clinton created a vacuum the way they gotout of iraq, because they got out — what, they shouldn’t have been in, but once theygot in, the way they got out was a disaster. and isis was formed. so she talks about taking them out. she’sbeen doing it a long time. she’s been trying to take them out for a long time. but theywouldn’t have even been formed if they left some troops behind, like 10,000 or maybe somethingmore than that. and then you wouldn’t have had them. or, as i’ve been saying for a long time,and i think you’ll agree, because i said it to you once, had we taken the oil — andwe should have taken the oil — isis would

not have been able to form either, becausethe oil was their primary source of income. and now they have the oil all over the place,including the oil — a lot of the oil in libya, which was another one of her disasters. clinton: well, i hope the fact-checkers areturning up the volume and really working hard. donald supported the invasion of iraq. clinton: that is absolutely proved over andover again. clinton: he actually advocated for the actionswe took in libya and urged that gadhafi be taken out, after actually doing some businesswith him one time.clinton: but the larger point — and he says this constantly — isgeorge w. bush made the agreement about when

american troops would leave iraq, not barackobama. and the only way that american troops couldhave stayed in iraq is to get an agreement from the then-iraqi government that wouldhave protected our troops, and the iraqi government would not give that. but let’s talk about the question you asked,lester. the question you asked is, what do we do here in the united states? that’sthe most important part of this. how do we prevent attacks? how do we protect our people? and i think we’ve got to have an intelligencesurge, where we are looking for every scrap of information. i was so proud of law enforcementin new york, in minnesota, in new jersey.

you know, they responded so quickly, so professionallyto the attacks that occurred by rahami. and they brought him down. and we may find outmore information because he is still alive, which may prove to be an intelligence benefit. so we’ve got to do everything we can tovacuum up intelligence from europe, from the middle east. that means we’ve got to workmore closely with our allies, and that’s something that donald has been very dismissiveof. we’re working with nato, the longest militaryalliance in the history of the world, to really turn our attention to terrorism. we’re workingwith our friends in the middle east, many of which, as you know, are muslim majoritynations. donald has consistently insulted

muslims abroad, muslims at home, when we needto be cooperating with muslim nations and with the american muslim community. they’re on the front lines. they can provideinformation to us that we might not get anywhere else. they need to have close working cooperationwith law enforcement in these communities, not be alienated and pushed away as some ofdonald’s rhetoric, unfortunately, has led to. trump: well, i have to respond. holt: please respond. trump: the secretarysaid very strongly about working with — we’ve been working with them for many years, andwe have the greatest mess anyone’s ever

seen. you look at the middle east, it’sa total mess. under your direction, to a large extent. but you look at the middle east, you startedthe iran deal, that’s another beauty where you have a country that was ready to fall,i mean, they were doing so badly. they were choking on the sanctions. and now they’regoing to be actually probably a major power at some point pretty soon, the way they’regoing. but when you look at nato, i was asked ona major show, what do you think of nato? and you have to understand, i’m a businessperson.i did really well. but i have common sense. and i said, well, i’ll tell you. i haven’tgiven lots of thought to nato. but two things.

number one, the 28 countries of nato, manyof them aren’t paying their fair share. number two — and that bothers me, becausewe should be asking — we’re defending them, and they should at least be paying uswhat they’re supposed to be paying by treaty and contract. and, number two, i said, and very strongly,nato could be obsolete, because — and i was very strong on this, and it was actuallycovered very accurately in the new york times, which is unusual for the new york times, tobe honest — but i said, they do not focus on terror. and i was very strong. and i saidit numerous times. and about four months ago, i read on the frontpage of the wall street journal that nato

is opening up a major terror division. andi think that’s great. and i think we should get — because we pay approximately 73 percentof the cost of nato. it’s a lot of money to protect other people. but i’m all fornato. but i said they have to focus on terror, also. and they’re going to do that. and that was— believe me — i’m sure i’m not going to get credit for it — but that was largelybecause of what i was saying and my criticism of nato. i think we have to get nato to go into themiddle east with us, in addition to surrounding nations, and we have to knock the hell outof isis, and we have to do it fast, when isis

formed in this vacuum created by barack obamaand secretary clinton. and believe me, you were the ones that took out the troops. notonly that, you named the day. they couldn’t believe it. they sat back probably and said,i can’t believe it. they said... clinton: lester, we’ve covered... trump: no, wait a minute. clinton: we’ve covered this ground. trump: when they formed, when they formed,this is something that never should have happened. it should have never happened. now, you’retalking about taking out isis. but you were there, and you were secretary of state whenit was a little infant. now it’s in over

30 countries. and you’re going to stop them?i don’t think so. holt: mr. trump, a lot of these are judgmentquestions. you had supported the war in iraq before the invasion. what makes your... trump: i did not support the war in iraq. holt: in 2002... trump: that is a mainstream media nonsenseput out by her, because she — frankly, i think the best person in her campaign is mainstreammedia. holt: my question is, since you supportedit... trump: just — would you like to hear...

holt: ... why is your — why is your judgment... trump: wait a minute. i was against the warin iraq. just so you put it out. holt: the record shows otherwise, but why— why was... trump: the record does not show that. holt: why was — is your judgment any... trump: the record shows that i’m right.when i did an interview with howard stern, very lightly, first time anyone’s askedme that, i said, very lightly, i don’t know, maybe, who knows? essentially. i then didan interview with neil cavuto. we talked about the economy is more important. i then spoketo sean hannity, which everybody refuses to

call sean hannity. i had numerous conversationswith sean hannity at fox. and sean hannity said — and he called me the other day — andi spoke to him about it — he said you were totally against the war, because he was forthe war. holt: why is your judgment better than... trump: and when he — excuse me. and thatwas before the war started. sean hannity said very strongly to me and other people — he’swilling to say it, but nobody wants to call him. i was against the war. he said, you usedto have fights with me, because sean was in favor of the war. and i understand that side, also, not verymuch, because we should have never been there.

but nobody called sean hannity. and then theydid an article in a major magazine, shortly after the war started. i think in ’04. butthey did an article which had me totally against the war in iraq. and one of your compatriots said, you know,whether it was before or right after, trump was definitely — because if you read thisarticle, there’s no doubt. but if somebody — and i’ll ask the press — if somebodywould call up sean hannity, this was before the war started. he and i used to have argumentsabout the war. i said, it’s a terrible and a stupid thing. it’s going to destabilizethe middle east. and that’s exactly what it’s done. it’s been a disaster.

holt: my reference was to what you had saidin 2002, and my question was... trump: no, no. you didn’t hear what i said. holt: why is your judgment — why is yourjudgment any different than mrs. clinton’s judgment? trump: well, i have much better judgment thanshe does. there’s no question about that. i also have a much better temperament thanshe has, you know? i have a much better — she spent — letme tell you — she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on an advertising — you know,they get madison avenue into a room, they put names — oh, temperament, let’s goafter — i think my strongest asset, maybe

by far, is my temperament. i have a winningtemperament. i know how to win. she does not have a... trump: wait. the afl-cio the other day, behindthe blue screen, i don’t know who you were talking to, secretary clinton, but you weretotally out of control. i said, there’s a person with a temperament that’s got aproblem. clinton: whew, ok. let’s talk about two important issues thatwere briefly mentioned by donald, first, nato. you know, nato as a military alliance hassomething called article 5, and basically it says this: an attack on one is an attackon all. and you know the only time it’s

ever been invoked? after 9/11, when the 28nations of nato said that they would go to afghanistan with us to fight terrorism, somethingthat they still are doing by our side. with respect to iran, when i became secretaryof state, iran was weeks away from having enough nuclear material to form a bomb. theyhad mastered the nuclear fuel cycle under the bush administration. they had built covertfacilities. they had stocked them with centrifuges that were whirling away. and we had sanctioned them. i voted for everysanction against iran when i was in the senate, but it wasn’t enough. so i spent a year-and-a-halfputting together a coalition that included russia and china to impose the toughest sanctionson iran.

and we did drive them to the negotiating table.and my successor, john kerry, and president obama got a deal that put a lid on iran’snuclear program without firing a single shot. that’s diplomacy. that’s coalition-building.that’s working with other nations. the other day, i saw donald saying that therewere some iranian sailors on a ship in the waters off of iran, and they were tauntingamerican sailors who were on a nearby ship. he said, you know, if they taunted our sailors,i’d blow them out of the water and start another war. that’s not good judgment. trump: that would not start a war. clinton: that is not the right temperamentto be commander-in- chief, to be taunted.

and the worst part... trump: no, they were taunting us. clinton: ... of what we heard donald say hasbeen about nuclear weapons. he has said repeatedly that he didn’t care if other nations gotnuclear weapons, japan, south korea, even saudi arabia. it has been the policy of theunited states, democrats and republicans, to do everything we could to reduce the proliferationof nuclear weapons. he even said, well, you know, if there were nuclear war in east asia,well, you know, that’s fine... clinton: ... have a good time, folks. trump: it’s lies.

clinton: and, in fact, his cavalier attitudeabout nuclear weapons is so deeply troubling. that is the number-one threat we face in theworld. and it becomes particularly threatening if terrorists ever get their hands on anynuclear material. so a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not have his fingers anywherenear the nuclear codes, as far as i think anyone with any sense about this should beconcerned. trump: that line’s getting a little bitold, i must say. i would like to... clinton: it’s a good one, though. it welldescribes the problem. trump: it’s not an accurate one at all.it’s not an accurate one. so i just want to give a lot of things — and just to respond.i agree with her on one thing. the single

greatest problem the world has is nucleararmament, nuclear weapons, not global warming, like you think and your — your presidentthinks. nuclear is the single greatest threat. justto go down the list, we defend japan, we defend germany, we defend south korea, we defendsaudi arabia, we defend countries. they do not pay us. but they should be paying us,because we are providing tremendous service and we’re losing a fortune. that’s whywe’re losing — we’re losing — we lose on everything. i say, who makes these — welose on everything. all i said, that it’s very possible that if they don’t pay a fairshare, because this isn’t 40 years ago where we could do what we’re doing. we can’tdefend japan, a behemoth, selling us cars

by the million... holt: we need to move on. trump: well, wait, but it’s very important.all i said was, they may have to defend themselves or they have to help us out. we’re a countrythat owes $20 trillion. they have to help us out. holt: our last... trump: as far as the nuclear is concerned,i agree. it is the single greatest threat that this country has. holt: which leads to my next question, aswe enter our last segment here (inaudible)

the subject of securing america. on nuclearweapons, president obama reportedly considered changing the nation’s longstanding policyon first use. do you support the current policy? mr. trump, you have two minutes on that. trump: well, i have to say that, you know,for what secretary clinton was saying about nuclear with russia, she’s very cavalierin the way she talks about various countries. but russia has been expanding their — theyhave a much newer capability than we do. we have not been updating from the new standpoint. i looked the other night. i was seeing b-52s,they’re old enough that your father, your grandfather could be flying them. we are not— we are not keeping up with other countries.

i would like everybody to end it, just getrid of it. but i would certainly not do first strike. i think that once the nuclear alternativehappens, it’s over. at the same time, we have to be prepared. i can’t take anythingoff the table. because you look at some of these countries, you look at north korea,we’re doing nothing there. china should solve that problem for us. china should gointo north korea. china is totally powerful as it relates to north korea. and by the way, another one powerful is theworst deal i think i’ve ever seen negotiated that you started is the iran deal. iran isone of their biggest trading partners. iran

has power over north korea. and when they made that horrible deal withiran, they should have included the fact that they do something with respect to north korea.and they should have done something with respect to yemen and all these other places. and when asked to secretary kerry, why didn’tyou do that? why didn’t you add other things into the deal? one of the great giveawaysof all time, of all time, including $400 million in cash. nobody’s ever seen that before.that turned out to be wrong. it was actually $1.7 billion in cash, obviously, i guess forthe hostages. it certainly looks that way. so you say to yourself, why didn’t theymake the right deal? this is one of the worst

deals ever made by any country in history.the deal with iran will lead to nuclear problems. all they have to do is sit back 10 years,and they don’t have to do much. holt: your two minutes is expired. trump: and they’re going to end up gettingnuclear. i met with bibi netanyahu the other day. believe me, he’s not a happy camper. holt: all right. mrs. clinton, secretary clinton,you have two minutes. clinton: well, let me — let me start bysaying, words matter. words matter when you run for president. and they really matterwhen you are president. and i want to reassure our allies in japan and south korea and elsewherethat we have mutual defense treaties and we

will honor them. it is essential that america’s word be good.and so i know that this campaign has caused some questioning and worries on the part ofmany leaders across the globe. i’ve talked with a number of them. but i want to — onbehalf of myself, and i think on behalf of a majority of the american people, say that,you know, our word is good. it’s also important that we look at theentire global situation. there’s no doubt that we have other problems with iran. butpersonally, i’d rather deal with the other problems having put that lid on their nuclearprogram than still to be facing that. and donald never tells you what he would do.would he have started a war? would he have

bombed iran? if he’s going to criticizea deal that has been very successful in giving us access to iranian facilities that we neverhad before, then he should tell us what his alternative would be. but it’s like hisplan to defeat isis. he says it’s a secret plan, but the only secret is that he has noplan. so we need to be more precise in how we talkabout these issues. people around the word follow our presidential campaigns so closely,trying to get hints about what we will do. can they rely on us? are we going to leadthe world with strength and in accordance with our values? that’s what i intend todo. i intend to be a leader of our country that people can count on, both here at homeand around the world, to make decisions that

will further peace and prosperity, but alsostand up to bullies, whether they’re abroad or at home. we cannot let those who would try to destabilizethe world to interfere with american interests and security... holt: your two minutes is... clinton: ... to be given any opportunitiesat all. holt: ... is expired. trump: lester, one thing i’d like to say. holt: very quickly. twenty seconds.

trump: i will go very quickly. but i willtell you that hillary will tell you to go to her website and read all about how to defeatisis, which she could have defeated by never having it, you know, get going in the firstplace. right now, it’s getting tougher and tougher to defeat them, because they’rein more and more places, more and more states, more and more nations. trump: and it’s a big problem. and as faras japan is concerned, i want to help all of our allies, but we are losing billionsand billions of dollars. we cannot be the policemen of the world. we cannot protectcountries all over the world... holt: we have just...

trump: ... where they’re not paying us whatwe need. holt: we have just a few final questions... trump: and she doesn’t say that, becauseshe’s got no business ability. we need heart. we need a lot of things. but you have to havesome basic ability. and sadly, she doesn’t have that. all of the things that she’stalking about could have been taken care of during the last 10 years, let’s say, whileshe had great power. but they weren’t taken care of. and if she ever wins this race, theywon’t be taken care of. holt: mr. trump, this year secretary clintonbecame the first woman nominated for president by a major party. earlier this month, yousaid she doesn’t have, quote, “a presidential

look.” she’s standing here right now.what did you mean by that? trump: she doesn’t have the look. she doesn’thave the stamina. i said she doesn’t have the stamina. and i don’t believe she doeshave the stamina. to be president of this country, you need tremendous stamina. holt: the quote was, “i just don’t thinkshe has the presidential look.” trump: you have — wait a minute. wait aminute, lester. you asked me a question. did you ask me a question? you have to be able to negotiate our tradedeals. you have to be able to negotiate, that’s right, with japan, with saudi arabia. i mean,can you imagine, we’re defending saudi arabia?

and with all of the money they have, we’redefending them, and they’re not paying? all you have to do is speak to them. wait.you have so many different things you have to be able to do, and i don’t believe thathillary has the stamina. holt: let’s let her respond. clinton: well,as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a releaseof dissidents, an opening of new opportunities in nations around the world, or even spends11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he can talk to me about stamina. trump: the world — let me tell you. letme tell you. hillary has experience, but it’s bad experience. we have made so many bad dealsduring the last — so she’s got experience,

that i agree. but it’s bad, bad experience. whether it’sthe iran deal that you’re so in love with, where we gave them $150 billion back, whetherit’s the iran deal, whether it’s anything you can — name — you almost can’t namea good deal. i agree. she’s got experience, but it’s bad experience. and this countrycan’t afford to have another four years of that kind of experience. holt: we are at — we are at the final question. clinton: well, one thing. one thing, lester. holt: very quickly, because we’re at thefinal question now.

clinton: you know, he tried to switch fromlooks to stamina. but this is a man who has called women pigs, slobs and dogs, and someonewho has said pregnancy is an inconvenience to employers, who has said... trump: i never said that. clinton: .... women don’t deserve equalpay unless they do as good a job as men. trump: i didn’t say that. clinton: and one of the worst things he saidwas about a woman in a beauty contest. he loves beauty contests, supporting them andhanging around them. and he called this woman “miss piggy.” then he called her “misshousekeeping,” because she was latina. donald,

she has a name. trump: where did you find this? where didyou find this? clinton: her name is alicia machado. trump: where did you find this? clinton: and she has become a u.s. citizen,and you can bet... trump: oh, really? clinton: ... she’s goingto vote this november. trump: ok, good. let me just tell you... holt: mr. trump, could we just take 10 secondsand then we ask the final question... trump: you know, hillary is hitting me withtremendous commercials. some of it’s said

in entertainment. some of it’s said — somebodywho’s been very vicious to me, rosie o’donnell, i said very tough things to her, and i thinkeverybody would agree that she deserves it and nobody feels sorry for her. but you want to know the truth? i was goingto say something... holt: please very quickly. trump: ... extremely rough to hillary, toher family, and i said to myself, “i can’t do it. i just can’t do it. it’s inappropriate.it’s not nice.” but she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on negative ads onme, many of which are absolutely untrue. they’re untrue. and they’re misrepresentations.

and i will tell you this, lester: it’s notnice. and i don’t deserve that. but it’s certainly not a nice thing thatshe’s done. it’s hundreds of millions of ads. and the only gratifying thing is,i saw the polls come in today, and with all of that money... holt: we have to move on to the final question. trump: ... $200 million is spent, and i’meither winning or tied, and i’ve spent practically nothing.

holt: one of you will not win this election. so my final question to you tonight, are you willing toaccept the outcome as the will of the voters? clinton: well, i support our democracy. andsometimes you win, sometimes you lose. but i certainly will support the outcome of thiselection. and i know donald’s trying very hard toplant doubts about it, but i hope the people out there understand: this election’s reallyup to you. it’s not about us so much as it is about you and your families and thekind of country and future you want. so i sure hope you will get out and vote as thoughyour future depended on it, because i think it does.

holt: mr. trump, very quickly, same question.will you accept the outcome as the will of the voters? trump: i want to make americagreat again. we are a nation that is seriously troubled. we’re losing our jobs. peopleare pouring into our country. the other day, we were deporting 800 people.and perhaps they passed the wrong button, they pressed the wrong button, or perhapsworse than that, it was corruption, but these people that we were going to deport for goodreason ended up becoming citizens. ended up becoming citizens. and it was 800. and nowit turns out it might be 1,800, and they don’t even know. holt: will you accept the outcome of the election?

trump: look, here’s the story. i want tomake america great again. i’m going to be able to do it. i don’t believe hillary will.the answer is, if she wins, i will absolutely support her. holt: all right. well, that is going to doit for us. that concludes our debate for this evening, a spirit one. we covered a lot ofground, not everything as i suspected we would. the next presidential debates are scheduledfor october 9th at washington university in st. louis and october 19th at the universityof nevada las vegas. the conversation will continue. a reminder. the vice presidential debate isscheduled for october 4th at longwood university

in farmville, virginia. my thanks to hillaryclinton and to donald trump and to hofstra university for hosting us tonight. good night,everyone.




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